Rebecca Watts v The In Crowd

It is unusual for  a poetry article to annoy me. A piece by Rebecca  Watts did just that. This is my response. Links to the offending article and associated material are to be found at the bottom of my piece.

I have no issue with Rebecca Watts expressing her opinion. I do have an issue with the evidence she uses to support her opinion. I am bemused that she should use “shock jock/clickbait” tactics to attract readers to such a conservative position. Her opening gambit is:

“WHY IS THE POETRY WORLD pretending that poetry is not an art form? I refer to the rise of a cohort of young female poets who are currently being lauded by the poetic establishment for their ‘honesty’ and ‘accessibility’ – buzzwords for the open denigration of intellectual engagement and rejection of craft that characterises their work.”

The poetry world is not pretending that poetry is not an art form. A cohort of young female poets may well have been lauded for their honesty and accessibility. They have also been lauded for many other things, and rightly so. None have denigrated intellectual engagement, or rejected craft that I am aware of.

Does artless poetry sell? What is artless poetry?

rupi kaur

I am not a devotee of Rupi Kaur ( I doubt that a middle aged white man is her target audience), however I am in awe of anyone who writes poetry, or a book, that sells 1.4m. Anyone who thinks that to do so involves no craft or art should give it a go. It speaks to, and connects with, a large audience, something any writer aspires to. Reflective, mystic poetry has a considerable following with a proud tradition, see Khalil Gibran.

Kate w

Nor am I a devotee of Kate Tempest, ( I doubt that a middle aged white man is her target audience). However, I am in awe of any poet who can pull thousands to see her perform, as happens at Festivals. She draws many who would not describe themselves as interested in poetry, and leaves them, wanting more, not simply more Tempest, but more poetry. Anyone who thinks that to do so involves no craft or art should give it a go. I wonder how many Rebecca will attract to her next reading? I also admire the lyricism and invention of Tempest’s best work.

hollie w

Watts has entirely underestimated McNish, of whom I am a devotee. She is a pop star, expert in playing to many audiences. Put her in front of a young Slam/Performance Poetry audience and she is hip as fuck. Put her on Woman’s Hour and she is a housewife’s favourite. Put her in an audience of academics she will impress and delight, in English, or French. McNish will play to the audience in front of her – but is that not what all performers do? When it attracts an audience as diverse as hers it should be a cause for celebration, not sniping.

Watts sneers at the popular. “The ability to draw a crowd, attract an audience or assemble a mob does not itself render a thing intrinsically good: witness Donald Trump. Like the new president, the new poets are products of a cult of personality, which demands from its heroes only that they be ‘honest’ and ‘accessible’, where honesty is defined as the constant expression of what one feels, and accessibility means the complete rejection of complexity, subtlety, eloquence and the aspiration to do anything well”.

Such sneering invariably comes from those who are unable to draw a crowd themselves. Honesty and accessibility are not Tempest’s and McNish’s only virtues. The view that they do not aspire to do anything well is insulting and ignorant. Subtlety and eloquence? Try Hollie’s “Language Learning”.

Watts claims that poems are “ deliberately created works, not naturally occurring phenomena”. I would be interested in her views on the first and second stanzas of Coleridge’s “Kubla Khan”. When I first heard Longfella’s “This is the Place” I had to stop the car, sometimes great poetry IS a naturally occurring phenomena.

Watts bemoans that :

“There is an upside to poetry becoming something that ‘anyone could do’……Even in the other arts, the line between amateur and professional is clearer than it is in poetry.”

Poetry IS something that anyone can do – but only as much as anyone can do anything. It is just as hard to do it well as any other art, something which Watts misses. She is derailed by the concepts of amateur and professional, the only criteria should be, “is it any good?”


The Article in Full
WHY IS THE POETRY WORLD pretending that poetry is not an art form? I refer to the rise of a cohort of young female poets who are currently being lauded by the poetic establishment for their ‘honesty’ and ‘accessibility’ – buzzwords for the open denigration of intellectual engagement and rejection of craft that characterises their work.

The short answer is that artless poetry sells. In October 2016 The Bookseller reported the highest-ever annual sales of poetry books, ‘both in volume and value’. According to Penguin’s poetry editor, Donald Futers, this boom was due to the emergence of a ‘particularly energetic and innovative’ generation of young poets, who come to publishing with a significant and ‘seemingly atypical’ following. Figures released on National Poetry Day this year confirm this is no fad: sales are up by another fifteen percent in volume. In 2016 and 2017 the bestselling title, which has outstripped all others by a staggering margin, has been Rupi Kaur’s Milk and Honey. Here is a typical poem from the book: ‘she was music / but he had his ears cut off’. Here is another:

i don’t know what living a balanced life feels like
when i am sad
i don’t cry, i pour
when i am happy
i don’t smile, i beam
when i am angry
i don’t yell, i burn
the good thing about
feeling in extremes
is when i love
i give them wings
but perhaps
that isn’t
such a good thing
cause they always
tend to leave and
you should see me
when my heart is broken
i don’t grieve
i shatter

Following the example of New Zealander Lang Leav (with whom she now shares a publisher), Kaur amassed hundreds of thousands of followers on Instagram before self-publishing a collection of her poetry online. Alerted to its popularity, Andrews McMeel Publishing – a specialist in the gift book market, now with a developed (as far as sales revenue is concerned) poetry arm – picked up the collection and issued it in print. By May 2017 it had sold 1.4 million copies (back then just over one per each of Kaur’s Instagram followers). Commenting on the appeal of Milk and Honey, Kaur’s publisher Kirsty Melville insisted that ‘the medium of poetry reflects our age, where short-form communication is something people find easier to digest or connect with’.

Had we time to digest it, the diagnosis might provide cause for concern. The idea that Web 2.0 has a deleterious effect on our attention spans and cognitive abilities is nothing new; internet entrepreneur Andrew Keen argued the case in his 2007 book from which this essay takes its title. A decade on, this autumn, Twitter co-founder Evan Williams registered his dismay at how social media platforms were helping to ‘dumb the entire world down’, lamenting specifically the role Twitter played in Donald Trump’s election victory. In the arena of politics, language has always been the slippery servant of self-promoting, truth-bending, popularity-seeking individuals. In the age of the sound bite, for which social media is the perfect vehicle, we no longer expect the statements politicians utter to convey any meaning whatsoever. From literature we have hitherto expected better – not least because endurance, rather than fleetingness, is one marker of its quality. As Pound put it, literature is ‘news which stays news’. Of all the literary forms, we might have predicted that poetry had the best chance of escaping social media’s dumbing effect; its project, after all, has typically been to rid language of cliché. Yet in the redefinition of poetry as ‘short-form communication’ the floodgates have been opened. The reader is dead: long live consumer-driven content and the ‘instant gratification’ this affords.

Though their reach is nowhere near Kaur’s in terms of absolute sales figures, Kate Tempest and Hollie McNish are her UK equivalents, dragging their significant and seemingly atypical followings into the arena of establishment-endorsed poetry. Both developed profiles on YouTube as an extension of their presence on the slam/performance scene, before being picked up in print by Picador. Both have received the Ted Hughes Award for New Work in Poetry. Through them, the establishment – by which I mean its publishers, editors, reviewers and awards administrators – demonstrates its belief that poetry must adapt to changes in the way people engage with literary output. Even McNish has deduced that her ‘poetic memoir’ Nobody Told Me won the Ted Hughes Award ‘because of where the poetry has gone, not for the quality of the writing’.

What good is a flourishing poetry market, if what we read in poetry books renders us more confused, less appreciative of nuance, less able to engage with ideas, more indignant about the things that annoy us, and more resentful of others who appear to be different from us? The ability to draw a crowd, attract an audience or assemble a mob does not itself render a thing intrinsically good: witness Donald Trump. Like the new president, the new poets are products of a cult of personality, which demands from its heroes only that they be ‘honest’ and ‘accessible’, where honesty is defined as the constant expression of what one feels, and accessibility means the complete rejection of complexity, subtlety, eloquence and the aspiration to do anything well. As Kaur’s editor has explained: ‘The emotional intensity of Rupi’s message of self-empowerment and affirmation, combined with her passionate audience really resonated and we could see through sales of her self-published edition that her readers were really responding to her message.’ Similarly, Don Paterson, the editor of Tempest and McNish, says McNish appealed to him because of her ‘direct connection with an audience’ and the ‘disarming honesty of the work’.

When did honesty become a requirement – let alone the main requirement – of poetry? Curiously, the obsession doesn’t apply to all literature; there is no expectation that the output of novelists or playwrights should reflect their personalities. Yet every one of the reviews and articles relating to McNish in the press in the past two years cites this feature as her work’s main selling point. Reviewing her new Picador collection Plum in The Scotsman, Roger Cox writes:

It’s not that she doesn’t care about things like scansion and simile; more that, in her personal list of aesthetic priorities, immediacy and honesty matter more. […] Much of what McNish has to say urgently needs saying; and if form follows function in her poems, well, that’s as it should be.

Honesty as an aesthetic priority? The function of poems? BBC presenter Jim Naughtie delivered similar non sequiturs when interviewing McNish for the BBC News channel’s Meet the Author broadcast on 15 June 2017. Asked what audiences like about her poems, McNish answered: ‘they like the honesty in them’. Naughtie elaborated:

They want poems that don’t seem too artificial or contrived, that actually hit you in the solar plexus. […] With any good poetry there’s nowhere to hide for the poet – I mean, it’s all there, isn’t it?

When we don’t expect linguistic precision from poets, perhaps it’s unfair to expect it from arts editors and broadcasters. Still, people who do not know that poems are deliberately created works, not naturally occurring phenomena, should not be paid to pass judgement on and host discussions about literature.

If, on the other hand, these cultural commentators do know that poetry is an art form, why are they lying? One explanation is that they are pandering to a strain of inverse snobbery that considers talent to be undemocratic. In acting thus, they are playing a part in the establishment’s muddle-headed conspiracy to ‘democratise’ poetry.

It was against precisely this ‘inadvertent’ trend that Paterson argued in his 2004 T.S. Eliot lecture ‘The Dark Art of Poetry’ (the full text is available online at A comparison of his standpoint then with his more recent comments about the new poets he has elected to publish reveals an astonishing U-turn. In 2004 Paterson denounced ‘the populists, who have made the fatal error of thinking that feeling and practice form a continuum […] those self-appointed popularisers, who, by insisting on nothing but dumb sense, have alienated poetry’s natural intelligent and literate constituency by infantilising our art’. Such writers, he argued, ‘purvey a kind of straight-faced recognition comedy, and have no need either for originality or epiphany’. In the Guardian on 16 June 2017 he identified the same characteristic as a cause for celebration, claiming that McNish’s work ‘gives me the kind of feeling you get from recognition comedy’.

Feelings aside, the analogy is problematic. Recognition comedy is the art of provoking laughter by making an audience recognise absurdity in the familiar. Its effect, when done well, is the cultivation of humility through self-awareness. McNish’s poems consist of assemblages of words that relate to familiar topics. Their effect is limited to recognition, which merely reinforces the reader or audience member’s sense of selfhood. As McNish and her critics acknowledge, her fans are drawn to the poems by the themes – sex, relationships and perceived social inequalities – as well as by McNish’s ‘unpretentious’ presentation, where unpretentious means abundant in expletives and unintimidating to anyone who considers ignorance a virtue. Again, these are characteristics Paterson derided in 2004:

To take a risk in a poem is not to write a big sweary outburst about how dreadful the war in Iraq is […]. This kind of poetry is really nothing but a kind of inverse sentimentalism – that’s to say by the time it reaches the page, it’s less real anger than a celebration of one’s own strength of feeling. Since it tries to provoke an emotion of which its target readers are already in high possession, it will change no-one’s mind about anything; more to the point, anyone can do it.

In 2017 he asserts the opposite:

Hollie takes on subjects that we don’t talk about as much as we think we do. People may think it’s easy writing as spontaneously as she does, with no artifice, but it’s really not. It only works because it perfectly suits her personality.

Paterson is right in this: Plum is the product not of a poet but of a personality. I was supposed to be reviewing it, but to do so for a poetry journal would imply that it deserves to be taken seriously as poetry. Besides, I was too distracted by the pathological attitude of its faux-naïve author, and too offended by its editor’s exemplary bad faith, to ignore the broader questions it provokes.

In 2015 I heard McNish speak on a panel at the Aldeburgh Poetry Festival, where she was also a main performer. Two things she said struck me then as bizarre, both in themselves and for the fact that she chose to admit them publicly. The first was that her publisher (presumably by then Picador) had sent her a pile of books to read, because they thought she hadn’t read enough poetry. The second was that the poems she was writing presently were the same as the poems she had written in her childhood diaries. It must have been around this time that she hit upon the idea for Plum, which treats us to the ‘first poem I wrote down, aged 8’, along with poems ‘written aged’ 9, 10, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18, 24, 25, 27, 29, 30 and 33 (as indicated in subtitles). Sometimes the childhood poems are explicitly paired with poems written in adulthood, with an introductory note by McNish highlighting their similarities. Via this novel format she curates her self-image as a writer in possession of her full talents from the start.

Poetry as an autobiographical project is nothing new; we could credit Wordsworth for inventing the expectation that a readership should be as interested in ‘the growth of a poet’s mind’ as the poet is. Ignorant of any tradition out of which poets write, McNish has inadvertently penned a Prelude for our time. Where Wordsworth’s lifelong poetic project explores the development of the poet’s particular sensibilities – development brought about through a combination of emotional experience, education, philosophical reflection and personal engagement with events, and debates whose implications extend beyond the poet’s sense of his individual identity and importance – McNish’s slapdash assembly of words (‘scribbled in confused moments’, as she says in the acknowledgements) celebrates the complete stagnation of the poet’s mind.

The first double-page spread of the collection presents ‘Meadows yellow, brown and green. / Rainbows in the sky. / No litter on the grass or fields. / Butterflies flutter by’ alongside ‘i think of strawberries in the summer / firmed and ripe and juicy / and how perfectly dandelion seeds / are made to helicopter breezes / procreating across fields’. The first is standard eight-year-old fare, suggestive of neither backwardness nor literary promise. The second, ‘written aged 30’, is a response to McNish’s mother’s assertion (McNish calls it ‘advice’) that ‘I love you to the moon and back, Hollie / but you are no more important than a tree’. McNish’s philosophising (‘and i wonder why we’re here […] and i wonder what the point is […] and what the fuck we’re on this rock for’) leads her simply to ‘remind myself / this is not all about you, hollie’. Unfortunately the thought, like a tweet, is no sooner expressed than forgotten.

The eight-year-old’s poem is printed twice: it bookends Plum’s first section, which consists of seventy poems grouped under the heading ‘(mind)’. While the second section consists of eight short poems categorised as ‘(body)’, the majority of poems in ‘(mind)’ are concerned with sex, anatomy, physical appearances, dancing, animals, food, or some combination thereof (‘Hiccups’, ‘Sweat’ and ‘Nipples’ are all classified as ‘(mind)’). If this feeble attempt to convince the reader that McNish’s infantile outbursts carry some philosophical significance seems preposterous, the use of parentheses to shield the terms from scrutiny is plain insulting – defensive and pretentious, meaningless and attention-seeking all at once.

In ‘(mind)’ we find the poem ‘MIDSOMER MURDER’, which attempts an analysis of the contemporary penchant for TV detective dramas. It begins:

there’s so much blood on the streets
why do we love to wade in it?
behind the safety of tv screens
we dip toes wet to the limits

it’s the underside of life
we like to lick a little for some reason
obsess over lips, spill, red, kissing death
camera shots zoomed
into actors’ faces screaming

A few stanzas later ‘we’ are caught red-handed, ‘lusting over shadows to stand in / where we can idolise the blame’. And what are we to learn from ‘our own grim fascination in this / in the details of the crimes / in the thorns piercing rose-red flesh / into other people’s chalked outlines’? The poem concludes:

it’s a human obsession, perhaps
to look beyond the fairy-tale glory

but when roses are painfully laid
on real graves every day
why do we so love a murder story?

In a sense it is unfair of me to single out this poem, because it’s the one in which McNish most obviously attempts to be poetic. Certainly it’s a departure from her usual style of garbled literal statements with the odd approximate rhyme thrown in. Did she actually read some of those books her publisher sent, notice that other people’s poems contain imagery and metaphor, and decide to give these a go? If so, should we judge the outcome more favourably, preferring the noble amateur’s efforts over the practised artist’s achievements? I keep reminding myself of the facts: this is published by Picador; Don Paterson edited it; the book costs £9.99.

Open Plum at any page and you will find writing of equivalent quality. Another perplexing example is ‘NO BALL GAMES’, the message of which (all the poems have messages) is that as a society we shouldn’t vilify young people when we don’t provide them with places to go. Lines such as ‘like ghosts / the “youth” now shuffle round / youth clubs closed / for lack of pounds’ could have been lifted straight from Alan Partridge’s magnificent poem about the working classes in the North ( For lines such as the following there is no explanation:

so now
stinks of shit
from sewers, seeps to streets to poison kids
preaching, it lies in gutters lined in teenage kicks
deflated footballs, mud and teenage sick

with stomachs thick and sagging centres
minds left numb and fun repented
it snatches fire-filled beating teenage hearts
pours water over bursting teenage sparks

till nothing’s left, nothing to do
towns now turned to teenage zoos
caged and locked, their pathways blocked
left only cock or trudging shops

as the young poor wait and rot
labelled yobs by headline cops

If only Schopenhauer could have read Plum! It would have distracted him from his hatred of Hegel. It is such stuff as madmen tongue, and brain not; the product of a ‘(mind)’ with a limited grasp of denotation and the ways in which words can be combined to form meaningful phrases. Yet in the Times (23 July 2017) Jeremy Noel-Tod claimed that McNish ‘can be verbally deft over long stretches, and is seriously interested in how language shapes the world and our emotions’. (He also says McNish writes with a ‘passionately insistent voice that seems to look you in the eye’, which perhaps explains his indifference to her tangled attempts at metaphor.)

Another misconception among – or deception practised by – her celebrants is that McNish’s ‘bold’ (Scotsman) and ‘fearless’ (Scotsman, Times) inclusion of poems by her younger self in the book is both generous and admirable – that her ‘willingness to let it all hang out’ (Guardian, Scotsman) should inspire us to greater honesty concerning our own failings. ‘As part of her fearless, funny and inclusive campaign against “armoured adult thoughts”,’ asserts Noel-Tod, ‘it makes perfect sense’. Can anyone really have been hoodwinked by such faux-humility? Rather, by making a virtue of her arrested development McNish shields herself from accusations of puerility. The book is deliberately bad: it is predicated on the defiance of all standards by which it could be judged. Here lies absurdity. Proud of their imperviousness to literary influence, the personality poets would have us redefine poetry as whatever the poetic establishment claims it isn’t. Ignorant of Shakespeare, Burns, Rochester, Dickinson, Rossetti, Harrison, Ginsberg, Larkin, Plath, Rich and a thousand others (including their contemporaries – Addonizio, Capildeo and Lee-Houghton, for example) they regard themselves as taboo breakers, as though no poet before them had ever written about sex or motherhood, highlighted inequalities or deployed obscenities.

While in person McNish admits her desire for establishment status – telling the Guardian that she ‘never would have got in’ if she’d ‘just sent [her] stuff off to traditional poetry publishers’, and, now that she is ‘in’, resisting the appellation ‘spoken word poet’ because ‘it can be a bit of a derogatory label’ – her writing is predicated on a truculent anti-establishmentism. In fact, in Plum the entire project of poetry – of invocation through language – is overturned. ‘I tried to capture it here, but I can’t’, McNish says, introducing a poem about her first bra. ‘I would say they are some of the worst poems I have ever written’, she smirks in her commentary on ‘extract from Désirs’, one of her ‘many terrible teenage love poems’. It is a twisted sort of vanity that leads a person to crave applause for what they believe to be their worst creations. Yet as McNish understands, the cult of personality that social media fosters works precisely this way: once you care about the person you’ll consume anything they produce – especially if it makes you feel better about your own lack of talent. ‘the poems tumble out my mouth / like our learnt school lines / people seem to like it’, she writes in ‘Oasis’. Despite her wholesale condemnation of aspiration, McNish aspires to be admired for her talents, as well as liked. ‘People often come up to me at gigs and tell me that they didn’t think they could write poetry until they read mine,’ she has lamented in the Guardian. ‘It’s not really a compliment, is it? Saying that anyone could do what I do.’

There is an upside to poetry becoming something that ‘anyone could do’. The art form can no longer be accused of being elitist – an accusation that until recently has precluded its mass-market appeal. In other contexts, elitism is not considered an evil in itself. We frankly desire our doctors, hairdressers, plumbers and sportspersons to be the best: to learn from precedent, work hard, hone their skills and be better than we are at their chosen vocations. Even in the other arts, the line between amateur and professional is clearer than it is in poetry. As Paterson argued in 2004: ‘Poetry is a wonderfully therapeutic thing to do at amateur level; but amateur artists and musicians don’t think they should exhibit at the Tate, or play at the Wigmore. (Serious poets, I should say, don’t start off amateurs, but apprentices – just like any other vocation.)’

Perhaps because poetry is taken to be the loftiest of the literary arts it is the most susceptible to invasion by those intent on bringing down all barriers on the grounds of fairness. McNish is one such warrior. In her commentary on ‘Politicians’ she claims that her mother’s warning ‘not to become an inverted snob’ is ‘one of the most important and difficult lessons I’ve tried to learn’. Her poem ‘Aspiration’ (subtitled ‘After watching Grand Designs on telly for the last time’) is revealing in this regard. After stereotyping those with ‘highly paid jobs’ and ‘workmen’ equally (she’s nothing if not egalitarian in her refusal to engage thoughtfully with others’ experiences), she compares the Grand Designers ‘sarah’ and ‘tim’ (or ‘jim’ – his name inexplicably changes halfway through), who ‘nibble on nuts from a vintage glass ashtray’, with herself ‘nibbl[ing] on nuts eaten straight from the packet’:

and i think how those nuts might taste from a bowl
on a dining-room table carved straight out of a tree […]

and then i get bored of this dream
and i realise i do not like tim
and that soon enough
we die

It’s not clear what’s stopping McNish from putting her nuts in a bowl. But having set out to lampoon the paraphernalia of an upper-middle-class lifestyle, she concludes with the nihilistic flourish that any aspiration or application of effort is futile.

Whether socially or as a writer, admitting pride in an attitude of slobbishness is a way of shielding oneself against criticism or condescension. Yet McNish needn’t worry. The middle-aged, middle-class reviewing sector is terrified of being seen to disparage the output of young, self-styled ‘working-class’ artists. In fact, it is terrified of being seen to criticise the output of anyone it imagines is speaking on behalf of a group traditionally under-represented in the arts. Time and time again, the arts media subordinates the work – in many cases excellent and original work – in favour of focusing on its creator. Technical and intellectual accomplishments are as nothing compared with the ‘achievement’ of being considered representative of a group identity that the establishment can fetishise. This is reflected in headlines such as ‘Vietnamese refugee Ocean Vuong wins 2017 Forward Prize for Poetry’ (Telegraph), and phrases such as ‘oriental poise’ and the ‘ragged sleeve’ of ‘ordinary working people’ (Kate Kellaway in the Guardian, on Sarah Howe and William Letford respectively). Such attitudes are predicated on the stereotyping or caricaturing of ‘audiences’, rather than an appreciation of the existence of individual readers. Just as McNish insults those she expects to buy her books – condescending to an uneducated class with which she professes solidarity, while simultaneously rejecting her spoken-word roots – the critics and publishers who praise her for ‘telling it like it is’ debase us as readers by peddling writing of the poorest quality because they think this is all we deserve.

We might ask: how is it? Life, as good poetry attests, is complicated and infinitely various. Just because something is ‘what I think’ doesn’t mean people en masse should be encouraged to listen (Trump and Farage should have taught us that much). It is the job of poets to safeguard language: to strive, through innovation and engagement with tradition, to find new ways of making language meaningful and memorable. Eliot noted in 1932, ‘the people which ceases to care for its literary inheritance becomes barbaric’. Though he wrote before Orwell, Eliot knew that to embrace Newspeak is to relinquish the only tool we have for communicating and defending civilised values. If we are to foster the kind of intelligent critical culture required to combat the effects of populism in politics, we must stop celebrating amateurism and ignorance in our poetry.
This article is taken from PN Review 239, Volume 44 Number 3, January – February 2018.




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9 Responses to Rebecca Watts v The In Crowd

  1. jaynestanton says:

    Thank you, Gary, for sharing Rebecca Watts’ article in full. I’m not familiar with the poetry of Rupi Kaur or Hollie McNish but I’ve heard Kate Tempest perform and have read some of her work on the page; I do think her work shows craft; it is not the ‘artless’ poetry that Watt’s rails against. Her sustained attack on McNish’s poetry doesn’t hold back any, but it does leave me thinking that, if McNish’s own comments about the quality of her work are accurate as quoted and not taken out of context, then perhaps the poet has done herself a disservice.

  2. jaynestanton says:

    Gary, if you haven’t already seen Hollie McNish’s response to the above article, here’s the link:

  3. Sorry, but this is very poorly argued, as opposed to Watt’s well argued and considered article.
    Not agreeing with the Slam ethos is not the same as ‘sneering’, which, from my reading of it, I do not feel she did. Your only defense of the type of poetry she has criticised is that it is ‘performed’ and attracts large audiences. But does this make it art? I think not.

    As a poet who has worked both on the stage and for the page, I abandoned Slam in the 90s – despite being quite successful at it – because too many practitioners were not there for the art of poetry but for their own self-aggrandisement. Too many ‘performers’ and ‘comedians’ playing for laughs or shock value, but not enough actual craft, or understanding of the craft. Not to mention the gladiatorial competitiveness of it, in which audience members ‘judge’ the poetry according to what THEY think good poetry might be. Completely subjective.

    That’s not to say there aren’t good poets in the spoken word scene. There most definitely are. But my personal feeling is that approbation from people who know nothing about the art form, who dn’t read, a;d who think and speak in sound bites is meaningless. Sure, it may turn people onto poetry as an art form but without some guided reading from people with knowledge in the area, the result will just be more bad poetry, or rants masquerading as poetry.

    • garylongden says:

      Firstly, Liz, thank you for reading my piece. I respect your opinion, as you can see by my publishing it.

      I am passionate about poetry as a genre, both page and stage.

      I found Watts’ article neither well argued, nor considered. I feel it comes from a small sector of the poetry community whose values, as espoused by Watts, are unhelpful to the form.

      The issue of Slam poetry is irrelevant to me. There are positives ( amongst them the discipline of a three minute piece) ,and negatives ( amongst them they can pander to the lowest common denominator). Slam poetry is just part of performed poetry, no more no less. My charge of sneering was not based upon what Watts thinks of Slam poetry. It was her reasons for the belittling of the form in general, and three named young female poets.

      My defence of the above is not that it is performed, and attracts large audiences.

      Pretty much all poetry is performed. A page poem read out is performed. It is neither a positive, nor a negative, in itself.

      Page poetry may have nuances and detail which are difficult, sometimes impossible, to appreciate when read out without a text to study. Some page poets will concentrate on those nuances and detail.

      Performance poetry tends to require a more immediate impact, but may be no less nuanced in its detail.
      There is good and bad in both.

      Popularity and large audiences are not a definitive measurement of excellence. A small number of people declaring something excellent, because they say so, is equally flawed.

      I am neither a champion for, or critic of, Slams. They are what they are. However I do not think that the motives of Slam poets are more, or less, laudable than page poets, who may crave unpaid publication in an obscure, barely read, journal, with all the zest of a Slam poet craving a final position.

      Slam poetry does attract its fair share of comedians and shock-jocks. Page poetry can attract those who prize obscurity and the arcane as ends in themselves. A slam panel’s judgement on what they have enjoyed is no more or less subjective than a TS Elliott prize panel.

      I am not sure who your final paragraph was aimed at. Hollie McNish and Kate Tempest are both widely read students of poetry, I don’t know of Kaur’s background.

      I can provide you with a list of senior University academics, working now, who will join me in robustly defending the quality and value of the Spoken Word scene ( Homer and Chaucer started it!).

      I think that you are much mistaken in believing that those who are introduced to, and enjoy, the Spoken Word scene are not motivated to read more widely. That they are, is very much my experience. What Tempest, McNish and Kaur do is reach out beyond a rarefied , closeted elite. I can assure you that once you excite people about poetry, you cannot stop them. McNish will play to more people in one night, than Watts will sell books in a year. That is a reach that is beyond populism, she is doing something right. Is something excellent if no-one knows about it? How would you know?

      It has always been the case that if you want to write good poetry, read some.

  4. Thanks for the considered reaponse Gary. I can’t say I disagree with anything you’ve said.

    But I have certainly noticed, at least in my own city of Brisbane, a silencing of well-regarded, well-published and reviewed poets here in Australia in favour of flavour-of-the-month people with no track record – simply because they have a gimmicky presentation or come from a minority group our arts funding bodies have prioritised. In these case, it is no longer about the work, but the personality. That a publicly funded festival can showcase a young poet who has never published a single thing, or aid and abet a serial plagiarist in obtaining public funding so they can go on to direct such a festival, is disgraceful. In my town, most of the best and brightest from the 70s-naughties have simply walked away.

    My own involvement in ‘performance poetry’ began in the 80s, and I was considered to be one of the ‘second wave’ here in Australia to popularise spoken word performance (according to some wikipedia hack, anyway). But back then there was a strongly held notion that the work must ‘work’ on the page as well as on the stage, and if it didn’t other poets weren’t shy about telling you so. When such standards are abandoned, we no longer have a written art form, only an oral tradition which, by its very nature, cannot approximate the depth of thought and nuance that print can achieve, if for no other reason than the short attention spans of audiences.

    As you can see from my background, I am not against spoken word as a form at all, and was in fact an early adopter. But I have walked away from poetry after impotently watching personality disordered attention-seekers take over our form, our funding, our festivals, all that so many worked so hard for, while systematically excluding almost all ‘real poets’ active before the year 2000. In this way, the Slam model has done a lot of damage to a previously vibrant and inclusive local writing scene.

    In my last para I was certainly not referring to oral poets like Tempest, who I consider to be an excellent poet, performer, and writer of fiction. As I said earler, there are most definitely some fine poets in the spoken word scene. But if popularity, sales, and ethnic background matter more to programmers than standards of excellence, audiences will be hard-pressed to learn the difference between good and bad poetry from what they see on literary festival stages.

    • garylongden says:

      In turn, Liz, thank you for your kind reply.

      I was interested to learn of your experiences in Brisbane. I live in Birmingham UK. We have three large Universities in the City and another five close by, with numerous poetry groups and spoken word events. Fortunately there is something for everyone here. However, I do recognise some of the problems you have raised as existing, in part, in Brisbane, here.

      Factually, in the UK, Whitbread/TS Elliott nominated prize short listers rarely sell more than 300 copies of their nominated book. The best spoken word poets are selling 2000 copies, self- published. Of course quality and volume sales do not always follow. But an audience is important, whatever the form.

      For me, Spoken Word is like pop music, an awful lot of disposable froth, with some substance to be found if you look hard enough, and wait. Excellence takes time. It is inevitable that young people, having a go, will be given a chance at festivals, to attract young audiences. I accept that image and impact may outweigh substance in many cases, but if it stimulates an interest in poetry, I am relaxed.

      I think that many fine page poems work performed, and vice versa. But I do not think that interchangeability is essential. Both forms have strengths and weaknesses. A good villanelle is a crafted delight, but is far better appreciated on the page. Hollie McNish’s “Language Learning” depends upon hearing the different languages spoken for maximum impact.

      I wholly agree that page poetry, well written, offers a density which stage poetry cannot match. Yet I was thinking of my favourite page poems, and almost all, can be read/performed in three minutes!

      It seems to me that we agree on much. Perhaps the only difference is that I am more optimistic that those who first sample the adrenaline hit of stage poetry, will explore, and be drawn into , the rich diversity of poetry which has gone before.

      What a pleasure it is to be able to chat about these things with someone from whom I am separated by 10,285 miles, but close to in terms of shared interests.

      Perhaps we could share some of the best page and stage poetry between ourselves from our respective corners of the world?

  5. G’day Gary!
    Yes, it is one of the best things about the internet, to be able to speak at length about complex subjects from the other side of the world! Unfortunately so much arguing and trolling goes on, rather than what we are doing here!

    For some reason this response of yours didn’t come to my attention till today, apologies. I do ‘follow’ your blog, so that’s curious …

    I am actually in the process of getting my old VHS video and cassette audio archives digitised, and will post them soon on my blog – the purpose being to demonstrate that there’s nothing new under the sun, and that I, also, had a long love affair with performing poetry, starting in the early 1980s. John Cooper Clarke, Henry Rollins, Jello Biafra, Nick Cave and a host of other punk identities come to mind as influences, as well as English troupes such as the ‘Apples & Snakes’ group and ‘The Raving Beauties’. Their anthologies, at the time, caused great excitement for we practitioners in Australia.

    As a postgraduate I wrote an article on the history of the Literary Cabaret as a form, which was published in a number of outlets, both in print and online. It references some of what was going on over here in the field. Here is a link.

    Thanks for the conversation. The bottom line, I think, is that those of us who were active in this field pre-internet really must digitize out archives if we want our contribution to be seen in the broader scheme of things. History is important, and art is ever-evolving, which is a wonderful thing!

    I was intending to put together a blog post about all this. But I think this written conversation covers a lot of the bases, and I was wondering if you’d agree to me reposting some (or all) of this discussion on my blog (with appropriate credits, of course, and links to your site). Not sure if this is the ‘done thing’, as I am quite new to blogging myself. I’ve only recently started, manly because of experiencing frustration at the pathetic level of discourse on social media where you can’t disagree with someone without it becoming an abusive argument.

    Anyhow, wonderful to chat!
    Liz HD

  6. garylongden says:

    Thanks for all of that. By all means quote from our exchange at will.
    There are many, like us, who welcome an exchange of views and experiences, rather than an exchange of abuse

    Please stay in touch!

  7. Hi Gary! So, I finally got around to writing a blog based on this. Hope you are travelling well. LHD

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